This is great! Btw, I've been doing encumbrance the same way, except STR or CON = number of slots, but I think I like the average idea better; I will try this next time.
But who ever fought with bronze against steel? In History, people moved from bronze to iron to steel. Iron to steel is a losing fight. I blacksmith and it astonishes everyone the difference between iron and steel under the hammer. You cannot mistake the feel when you hammer steel....One can even make steel (microns thick) on a piece of hot iron, and you will immediately feel the addition when hammering. With the rise of the blast furnace, steel spread across Europe faster than wilfdfire. EVERYONE needed the cutting edge and the strength of steel.
Only in RPGs does bronze clash with steel and that's a losing fight. Hardened high carbon steel will hardly dull when chiseling bronze. Cupric alloys a comparatively too soft.
Fascinating stuff. In my campaign bronze exists as a holdover from an ancient conquered empire and is usually used by undead etc. I’d love to hear more about how bronze iron and steel weaponry might work from a mechanical standpoint in D&D if you have the time or inclination.
That's at least a logical reason for bronze turning up in fights. I suggest you look up Dequitem on YouTube. They do un-choreographed fights between armored combatants, but they also have some demonstration videos on the strength of steel plate armor. Basically, you ain't getting through steel armor without a gun or a cannon or a ballista. Even then, such weapons are relatively ineffective unless it's a direct hit.
Steel plate harness makes the wearer invulnerable to even poleaxes.
The only hope is to get around steel armor, to go in through cracks. The sword is less useful than the dagger. Many of their fights devolve into armored wrestling matches where one then grabs a dagger and hits the gaps in the plates.
A steel sword versus a bronze sword would likely see the bronze weapon bent badly or outright broken. A steel weapon parrying against a bronze will damage it without taking any damage itself. It's a one-sided affair with the steel wielding combatant needing only to beat down the other's weapon until it's ruined.
Bronze vs iron is another matter. Bronze can be hammer-hardened. It will be stronger than a pure-iron weapon. In a clash between bronze an iron, the bronze will have advantage, though not as stark an advantage as steel over iron or bronze. The great advantage of iron weapons is they are much cheaper to produce than bronze. Everyone can afford an iron spear and iron sword.
This is one of the elements of History that is crucial to understand: steel production was hit or miss, more or less accidental, in bloomery iron making. That was the primary source of iron/steel with the exception of ancient India and Iran. They had crucible steel know-how. The Ulfbehrt swords seem to have been brought into Europe via a trade route to Iran that lasted about 2 centuries in the early part of the Middle Ages.
Iron casting is an entirely different process and made for tough but brittle implements; cast iron has around 2% carbon. Steel has around 0.5% carbon. A little carbon goes a long way; too much embrittles the material. Consider a file: it is high carbon steel with high hardness. You can snap a file just by smacking it against a rock or an anvil. The hardness enables it to cut softened steel, iron, etc. Take that same piece of high carbon steel, soften it more or reduce it's carbon content a smidge, and you get a springier, more forgiving steel...such as is used in sword blades and steel armor. It gives a bit rather than breaks. Same material, tiny change in quenching/tempering or a tiny removal of carbon, you get a big change in working characteristics.
Bronze is a cupric alloy. As such, if you heat and quench it, you get a softer work piece. Iron/steel harden in cold quench, copper alloys soften. You get hardness into cupric alloys by work-hardening them. Hammering them compacts the atoms and makes them denser, harder, less springy. The art of the bronze sword is in keeping the core of the blade softer and springier, then gradually work-hardening the piece as you move to the cutting edge. At the edge, you harden it as much as it will take without cracking.
All this has left out a great deal of complexity added by alloying iron with chromium or molybdenum or vanadium, etc. All that changes your steel tremendously. Tiny amounts of this or that will alter your steel in interesting ways. Phosphate = corrosion resistance; look up the Iron Pillar of Delhi. Inclusions like sand can give corrosion resistance too, essentially infusing glass into your iron.
There is evidence of bronze being alloyed with arsenic or mercury in China, sometimes only at the cutting edges. How this was done is a mystery still. Such alloys have greater hardness than can be achieved by hammering alone.
This is so cool and interesting to me. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. I’ll look up some of this stuff to further my education on the topic. Wonderful alchemy!
A bronze sword breaks on a nat 1, and has a chance to break when it rolls max damage. Iron swords break on nat 1. Steel swords don’t break. Spears get first attack if it’s first round of melee. Lots of little stuff that will become second nature as we go on.
Where did these come from? Are there ways for the PC's to sharpen or improve weapons as well?
Outstanding!!! Is that a Dungeonscrawl output?
READ THE POST haha. It’s a Dyson Logos map.
This is awesome, can't wait for more.
Thanks Dave!!!
Excellent Map!! Love this one, hope your players enjoy it!! And "wingin' it" is the best way to DM!
Agreed!
Dyson does great maps.
I have to wonder if that is his version of the temple of elemental evil. It looks super familiar.
And wow, it wasn't 3d6 down-the-line? Hope your players know they got lucky! LoL
Keep up the good work!
Great read. Love the little details about how you tweak and run things
Exciting stuff! Always a good read.
Thanks Paul
This is great! Btw, I've been doing encumbrance the same way, except STR or CON = number of slots, but I think I like the average idea better; I will try this next time.
Cheers!
Don't disparage bronze weapons. Generations died on the points of bronze spears and swords.
No doubt. They’re just not as good as steel.
True.
But who ever fought with bronze against steel? In History, people moved from bronze to iron to steel. Iron to steel is a losing fight. I blacksmith and it astonishes everyone the difference between iron and steel under the hammer. You cannot mistake the feel when you hammer steel....One can even make steel (microns thick) on a piece of hot iron, and you will immediately feel the addition when hammering. With the rise of the blast furnace, steel spread across Europe faster than wilfdfire. EVERYONE needed the cutting edge and the strength of steel.
Only in RPGs does bronze clash with steel and that's a losing fight. Hardened high carbon steel will hardly dull when chiseling bronze. Cupric alloys a comparatively too soft.
Fascinating stuff. In my campaign bronze exists as a holdover from an ancient conquered empire and is usually used by undead etc. I’d love to hear more about how bronze iron and steel weaponry might work from a mechanical standpoint in D&D if you have the time or inclination.
That's at least a logical reason for bronze turning up in fights. I suggest you look up Dequitem on YouTube. They do un-choreographed fights between armored combatants, but they also have some demonstration videos on the strength of steel plate armor. Basically, you ain't getting through steel armor without a gun or a cannon or a ballista. Even then, such weapons are relatively ineffective unless it's a direct hit.
Steel plate harness makes the wearer invulnerable to even poleaxes.
The only hope is to get around steel armor, to go in through cracks. The sword is less useful than the dagger. Many of their fights devolve into armored wrestling matches where one then grabs a dagger and hits the gaps in the plates.
A steel sword versus a bronze sword would likely see the bronze weapon bent badly or outright broken. A steel weapon parrying against a bronze will damage it without taking any damage itself. It's a one-sided affair with the steel wielding combatant needing only to beat down the other's weapon until it's ruined.
Bronze vs iron is another matter. Bronze can be hammer-hardened. It will be stronger than a pure-iron weapon. In a clash between bronze an iron, the bronze will have advantage, though not as stark an advantage as steel over iron or bronze. The great advantage of iron weapons is they are much cheaper to produce than bronze. Everyone can afford an iron spear and iron sword.
This is one of the elements of History that is crucial to understand: steel production was hit or miss, more or less accidental, in bloomery iron making. That was the primary source of iron/steel with the exception of ancient India and Iran. They had crucible steel know-how. The Ulfbehrt swords seem to have been brought into Europe via a trade route to Iran that lasted about 2 centuries in the early part of the Middle Ages.
Iron casting is an entirely different process and made for tough but brittle implements; cast iron has around 2% carbon. Steel has around 0.5% carbon. A little carbon goes a long way; too much embrittles the material. Consider a file: it is high carbon steel with high hardness. You can snap a file just by smacking it against a rock or an anvil. The hardness enables it to cut softened steel, iron, etc. Take that same piece of high carbon steel, soften it more or reduce it's carbon content a smidge, and you get a springier, more forgiving steel...such as is used in sword blades and steel armor. It gives a bit rather than breaks. Same material, tiny change in quenching/tempering or a tiny removal of carbon, you get a big change in working characteristics.
Bronze is a cupric alloy. As such, if you heat and quench it, you get a softer work piece. Iron/steel harden in cold quench, copper alloys soften. You get hardness into cupric alloys by work-hardening them. Hammering them compacts the atoms and makes them denser, harder, less springy. The art of the bronze sword is in keeping the core of the blade softer and springier, then gradually work-hardening the piece as you move to the cutting edge. At the edge, you harden it as much as it will take without cracking.
All this has left out a great deal of complexity added by alloying iron with chromium or molybdenum or vanadium, etc. All that changes your steel tremendously. Tiny amounts of this or that will alter your steel in interesting ways. Phosphate = corrosion resistance; look up the Iron Pillar of Delhi. Inclusions like sand can give corrosion resistance too, essentially infusing glass into your iron.
There is evidence of bronze being alloyed with arsenic or mercury in China, sometimes only at the cutting edges. How this was done is a mystery still. Such alloys have greater hardness than can be achieved by hammering alone.
Fascinating stuff.
This is so cool and interesting to me. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. I’ll look up some of this stuff to further my education on the topic. Wonderful alchemy!
Please do so. Do check out the Dequitem videos on how hard plate armor was to penetrate. That's an eye-opener.
The details give all kinds of opportunity to stick in a bit of magic and turn things in new directions.
I love the mechanics of:
A bronze sword breaks on a nat 1, and has a chance to break when it rolls max damage. Iron swords break on nat 1. Steel swords don’t break. Spears get first attack if it’s first round of melee. Lots of little stuff that will become second nature as we go on.
Where did these come from? Are there ways for the PC's to sharpen or improve weapons as well?
Yes - they can smith them if they have sufficient gear. They can repair them and save money. They can improve armor piecemeal etc